Rule Q&A: Resolving multiple instances of persist on a single creature

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September 06, 2010, 07:19:58 PM

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[brandon.haase]

I've been searching the usual rules forums and could not find any references to this rules question I have:

Persist (When this creature is put into a graveyard from play, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to play under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)

1. A creature has two instances of Persist and it dies. After SBE stack both Persist triggers.
2. Resolve the first trigger, returning the creature to play.
3. In response to the remaining Persist trigger on the stack, sacrifice the creature (with a -1/-1 counter on it) to something.
4. Stack another Persist trigger, then resolve it without returning the creature to play (because it had a -1/-1 counter)
5. Resolve the last persist trigger.

What happens when that last Persist trigger resolves?

What I want to happen is that the creature is returned to play (when the trigger was stacked, the last known information was the creature did not have a -1/-1 counter).

What I believe will happen is that because the creature left the graveyard and returned to play, it is no longer considered to be the same object and the last Persist trigger to resolve will not find "the creature" to return to play.

Fellow judges, what happens and why?

Thanks,
Brandon

[Bernd Buldt]

Hi  Brandon!

What happens when that last Persist trigger resolves?

I'd say nothing.

First off, the SHM FAQ says "If a permanent has multiple instances of persist, they'll each trigger separately, but the redundant instances will have no effect. If one instance returns the card to play, the next will do nothing."

Now why should that be so, esp. in light of the fact that FAQs are not always 100% reliable?

The original permanent, let's call it A_0, goes to the graveyard and becomes a new object, A_1, due to the zone change.  Now, b/c persist is a triggered ability, it can still see the new object A_1 in the graveyard and can return it to play, where it becomes A_2.  That persist can see A_1 in the graveyard is an exception handled in CR 217.1c(2).

Sac-ing the permanent makes A_2 some A_3 in the graveyard.

When the the last persist trigger resolves, it can no longer see "this creature," which would be A_0 (or A_1 in the graveyard) but has become A_3, and hence does nothing.

Did I miss something?

Greetz to Candice and you!

[brandon.haase]

Thanks Bernd. This is exactly what I expected; thanks for the concise description of how the objects become new instances as they move between zones.

Candice and I look forward to seeing you at Shards, will you be in Indy?

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